Proof hybrids and electric cars aren't doing their "job"

"TJDMAX" (tjdmax) 06/18/2014 at 12:56 • Filed to: None

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While it usually isn't a hard thing to convince readers of Oppo or Jalopnik that hybrids aren't the "best" cars out there, there are still some people (Doug DeMuro) that think they are better than diesels at being efficient environmentally friendly vehicles.

Sure, call me biased because i work for an up and coming high power, clean, more efficient diesel engine design company, but i have never liked hybrids and our CEO just found these articles proving that hybrids haven't made quite the impact as we think they have.

1) Toyota recently announced that they have concluded electric vehicles aren't a viable alternative.

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2) Today I saw this article about Honda backing away from another of their hybrid offerings (it must be painful for them to do years of effort and investment to engineer, industrialize and market these products only to drop them.

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3) Recently there have been a number of articles !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! pointing out that hybrids in total have not, after nearly two decades of effort, passed even 4% market share and seem likely not to pass that mark. It must be exceedingly painful for those OEMs (like Honda) who do not make the Prius, as the Prius family accounts for more than half of all hybrid sales, so that means the other 40+ models being offered by all the other OEMs share less than 2% of the market.

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4) I also saw an article that reported that diesels outsell hybrids in the state with the "greenest orientation", that is, my state, California. This article says they are close to even, with diesels lagging a bit, but given that there are nearly 50 hybrid models for sale and less than 20 diesel models for sale, I'm quite sure Diesel will overtake hybrid. Have you driven one? They are great. Fun to drive, clean and efficient.

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Just some interesting articles. Of course i expect this to open up some debate and argument but i just wanted to post some interesting findings on this topic.

Forgetful > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:00

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TJDMAX > Forgetful 06/18/2014 at 13:04

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valid point. Money and purpose being the two biggest reasons in my mind. Cost of diesel and hybrids is already a premium over gas engine variants. Also that hybrid system is based more for performance than fuel economy, while the hybrids of the consumer world are based solely for MPG increases.

HammerheadFistpunch > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:06

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your definitely playing with a home field advantage here with The jalop diesel lovers (my self included) but thats not to say hybrids don't have a place. I just think that place is a happy little town called "torque fill" and no where near the HOV lane.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:07

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I want to see some statistics like that for overseas, I know in Europe most cars come with a diesel variant and people don't see it as "embarrassing" to have one as we do here in the U.S. Because diesels are everywhere over there, I'm sure hybrids must have a smaller foothold than they do here but it would be cool to know how much.

Textured Soy Protein > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:12

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My biggest problem with diesels is the only affordable diesels sold in the US are VWs, and VW is garbage. I could say no offense meant to VW drivers, but that would be a lie.

Which means the cheapest diesel passenger car worth buying (unless you're willing to drive a VW in which case you are someone likely to utter the phrase "my car is so premium , look at the soft-touch interior plastics! ") is a BMW 328d which starts at $38,600.

Now let's say companies who sell reasonably priced diesel cars in other markets start bringing those cars over to the US, or installing those motors into US models, then diesel will make sense as an economical, non-VW choice.

Until then, have fun in the VW service bay.

TJDMAX > HammerheadFistpunch 06/18/2014 at 13:13

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I know that i'm appealing to the diesel lovers here, but i just wanted to spread some information that could maybe be used to persuade future car purchasers from buying a hybrid and looking at a diesel, or try and bring the ego down of existing hybrid vehicles.

TJDMAX > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/18/2014 at 13:15

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I have always been jealous of how much of a diesel presence Europe has had over the U.S. I would hope that we can start to follow those footsteps and bring more diesels over to our shores.

LoremIpsum010101 > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:17

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I think hybrids have a very important niche as commuter/family cars, especially so-called "plug-in" hybrids that can charge off of a renewable energy grid and do 20-30 mile commute gas-free. I also believe that the Priues is the #1 selling sedan in California, so they are definitely still popular.

Its possible we have reach "peak hybrid," but I that is only because I see fully electric cars becoming more and more common, even within the decade. Diesel engines, even with the advanced and wondrous emissions scrubbing tech you are no doubt working on, and the availability of ultra low-sulfur fuel, are still "dirtier" than gas engines, especially compared with hybrids in urban areas. God knows I love the character of a good oil-burner, and I'd love to see the new Mazda6 with a diesel and manual, but I don't ever see them matching or surpassing hybrids as the go-to "efficient commuter car."

HammerheadFistpunch > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:17

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In terms of cars that people will actually buy and use, diesels (US spec diesels especially) are far superior in driving pleasure and real world economy (mixed), but I do see hybrids moving from less of a prius architecture to more a 918/laFerrari/P1 architecture to facilitate extreme or high performance while meeting emissions standards. It's fine with me, though I still feel in those cases that light makes right.

Textured Soy Protein > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:18

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Diesels are more prevalent in Europe because diesel is cheaper than gasoline there.

Here in Amurrica, diesel is more expensive than gasoline because it's considered by the government as fuel mostly for over-the-road trucking and taxed at a higher rate.

TJDMAX > Textured Soy Protein 06/18/2014 at 13:18

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I am well aware of the issues that VW's have had and some still currently have. I don't own a tdi car but they can't be THAT unreliable or no one would buy them. Now i could be wrong in giving VW the benefit of the doubt in assuming that their quality has gone up a little on their new cars....but i would like to think it has based on the popularity of the tdi cars they sell.

TJDMAX > Textured Soy Protein 06/18/2014 at 13:19

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Its not always more expensive. I drive a diesel truck so i am filling it up and currently (out here in san diego) i have found it for 10-15 cents cheaper per gallon than regular.

TJDMAX > HammerheadFistpunch 06/18/2014 at 13:20

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I really hope that one day we can see the performance hybrids (918/p1/etc) in more affordable vehicles. I would not be opposed to that style hybrid at all.

Textured Soy Protein > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:22

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Well, any new car is probably "decent." I just have an irrational dislike of VW.

I would say that right now many people who buy TDI VWs are either:

a) Already VW fans ("Just feel how soft my dashboard is!")

b) Buy the car because it is literally the only reasonably-priced diesel option available and they really want a diesel.

TJDMAX > Textured Soy Protein 06/18/2014 at 13:24

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Fair enough. No doubt that in 7-8 years all sorts of little annoying things will start going wrong with those cars. My mom's 07 vw beetle has had the same passenger side window regulator replaced god knows how many times. But that is the stereotype that comes with any used European car i feel.

Textured Soy Protein > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:24

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Well, generally, diesel is more expensive. Because of taxes. From wikipedia :

The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel. On average, as of April 2014, state and local taxes add 31.5 cents to gasoline and 31.0 cents to diesel, for a total US average fuel tax of 49.9 cents per gallon for gas and 55.4 cents per gallon for diesel.

Textured Soy Protein > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:26

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I mean, I have a BMW and a Jeep. Neither of which are considered paragons of reliability. VW just rubs me the wrong way for no good reason. ;)

Forgetful > TJDMAX 06/18/2014 at 13:32

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The whole point of pushing hybrid tech at Le Mans (and in F1) is to cut down on fuel consumption and to move the technology forward, with targets of using 30% less fuel of the course of the race. Both F1 and LMP1 are a lot slower than they were a decade ago.

While diesel is more thoroughly developed, it still suffers the same efficiency losses that a gasoline ICE does, and therefore would benefit from the energy recovery of emerging hybrid systems.

You're probably right that the current batch of hybrids aren't getting the job done, but that's not because the tech isn't up to par, it's because it's not yet cheap enough to be in most every day commuter cars. Eventually the rising price of fuel and the falling cost of the technology will cross a point where hybrid tech is inevitable, regardless of the fuel used.

Bruno Martini > TJDMAX 06/19/2014 at 16:16

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Hybrid = 1/2 moron & 1/2 idiot......